This page is where you can ask me questions, I will do my best to answer them.
Please use the comments section below to ask your question.
About
I am a Salvation Army officer, currently serving as Territoral Commander of the Australia Southern Territory.
What are your thoughts on the longetivity of Officer appointments? Do you agree with the trend towards longer appointments?
Hi Peter, having had some long appointments, for example, six year as Corps Officers at Box Hill, we know the distinct advantage of longer term leadership. It would always be our hope to see officers remain in appointments longer. History shows us however, that the general change can often be driven by officers who ask to leave an appointment for various reasons. Three years ago, 73% of changes made in January, were for that very reason. Keep up the great work you are doing and remember, the secret to longevity in an appointment and ministry, is creating balance.
What do you think of the local corps advertising that comments and complaints wikll be answered in 7 days and after 7 weeks stil no reply. It is very disappointing that as a Christian organization they take such a slack attitude. Also it is disappointing that evebn though they do a good job in welcoming in new church people the old ones they let slip by as if you do not come for up to six months their is no follow up and some people have not been for years and no follow up and they get lost. It is good to get new members but if you lose old members then the new members just make up for the old members and the numbers do not grow
Hi Peter, my apologies for taking a bit of time to get back to you. It is true that from time to time the church is responsible for promising much but can be on the low end of delivering what was promised. The biggest disappointment is to those who are looking for something from the Church and not finding it. We all need to be more sensative to the needs of others I would agree. Thanks for your comment. Regards
On Friday you invited THQ staff members to contribute thoughts on the advancement of TSA mission even if the area commented on was outside the “silo” of their current duties. Could you please clarify where such items could be forwarded? Is there a physical or email “suggestion box” or should they be passed through the employee’s Dept Head? Thank you.
Hi Vicki,
Thanks for touching base and I really appreicate your question, interestingly enough someone else asked the same thing. I will make sure there is a “letter box” in the staff dining area for people to post their ideas.
I will welcome the ceative thinking of people from THQ and beyond and look forward to hearing from you.
Regards.
Hi – 1. is it possible to have a ‘retweet’ option on your blog?
2. When and where is the new book GOING FURTHER FOR GOD available?
Much grace,
sec
Dear Stephen,
I have missed you from around the place, you are a man, never to be forgotten. The book turned out great and I have arranged for a copy to be sent to you. I know you will love the cover. Thank you so much for the push you gave this project, you have honoured me greatly.
I remember you always.
Raymond
The cover is great! Praise God and congratulations to the designer. God bless the Australia Southern Territory!
Hi steve – simon here, I’m helping the Commissiner with the technical side of the blog, in regard to the retweet button, no we can not put one in. Cheers
although WordPress can, and they now have
I understand that there’s been a recent review of Education and Training within our Territory. I’m not sure what the scope of this enquiry was, but it seems to me that there is enormous unexplored potential in this area for The Salvation Army. I think we could benefit greatly by creating stronger connections between some of those elements that currently operate independently – officer training, employee training, student placements, work on post-graduate theses, social research and policy making to name a few. Greater ‘cross-fertilisation’ in these areas would not only give us an even more credible voice in the Australian community, but surely would both inspire and strengthen the development of current and future officers. Most universities have a research function as well as an educational focus and benefit from this complementarity – how much more could The Salvation Army do, with our practical engagement in mission, to enhance the learnings available here?
Jason, the outcome of the review was disappointing and did not seem to go as far as we had requested. Geoff Webb has now undertaken the task. A broard ranging approach to education along with the consolidation of our various education/training streams is what we are aiming to achieve.
You are very welcome to speak with Geoff about the project and share your thinking. Clearly we need to improve our aproach to education and training.
For many years now it seems that The Salvation Army has embraced and promoted chaplaincy within social programs, recognising it’s value and elevating it’s importance. Whilst this is very commendable and encouraging there is still no representative for chaplains at a Territorial level. Is it likely that we will see someone appointed to a Territorial Chaplaincy coordinator (or similar) role in the future?
Hi Les, it is a matter that is currently under discussion and I hope we can achieve it.
I’m asking in a broarder sense: Do you think the Army is too dependent on Government support financially, to be able to speak out more boldly against bad policies, or against political corruption?
Hi Dieter, thanks for your question. In short, TSA is not influenced by government funding when it comes to public advocacy. There is often a tension in knowing what fights to pick because, you will never win them all and at the same time to retain a respect by government that means when you do speak you are listened too.
We do a lot of direct interface with government both state and federal from both territories as well as the National Secretariate in Canberra.
regards
Great to see a senior chaplaincy position has been created at Territorial headquarters. This is a great step forward it supports and encourages those of us currently engaged in chaplaincy. You are to be congratulated on this visionary appointment – thank you on behalf of all chaplains.
Les my friend, thanks for your comment.
The last two weeks People Count has sent me emails saying that 0 people have made first time committments. Whether this is becasue people arent getting their stats in on time or not doesnt matter, those stats are horrible for an Army aiming to win the world for Jesus. Do you have any plans to foster a greater desire to see the world saved and are there any plans to resource people so that we can be better evangelists?
Those stats are only horrible if they are true. If everyone was putting their stats in, and we knew the numbers were 100% accurate, then it would be a different story. The moral is, before we make judgments, good data is needed, so if you are in a position to enter your corps stats, please do it!
True Sye, but the stats that were entered do say that 5,665 participated in worship and 13,884 people were helped last week. The stats remain horrible.
Touché.
Hi Raymond
Do you think leadership can be taught, or is it a gift?
Darrell this is a good question which is often asked. To begin with, leadership starts with character, strong, determined character committed to a cause, this is the embrio of leadership.
Some have the gift of leadership, while others work hard to develop it, but if a person lacks the essentials of character, they will never be a true leader. They might hold a position of leadership and achieve through power and intimidation, some follow them because they are given no choice.
But real leadership evokes a response in others that causes them to want to follow, even when they have a choice not too.
Regards.
I have often felt that if TSA transfers energy and resources from ‘leadership development’ to ‘finding/recruiting leaders’ who would commit to our mission we would be far more effective. People with a leadership gift are ‘self-led’ and find ways to grow.
Of course this is a very complex issue given our current plan for recruiting leaders (ie. Officers). Is there any experimentation or innovation in this area within the Territory? Or is there a feeling of satisfaction that our current strategy is a good one?
Darrell, interestingly enough, the resources put into leader development has never been greater. Consider Officer / employee education, courses, conferences (overseas and within Aust.), mentoring, coaching, counselling, spiritual direction, establishment of Officer Leader Development Department and the Employee Learning and Development Department, the Registered Training Organisation at Geelong, it is extensive and expensive.
We are never satisfied with the status quo, we are an organisation with a focus on continuous improvement and this includes leader development.
My point is that I realise we put an incredible amount of resources into developing our current leaders – what if we shifted the resources/energy that we use to develop current leaders, and put it into recruiting gifted, self-led, passionate leaders instead?
I am not saying we don’t already have these kind of leaders in the organisation, but you could always use more, right?
I think there are some elements of Leadership that cannot be taught.
So tell me Darrell, what’s really in your mind on this subject?
Bit hard to explain on a blog. Maybe we’ll get to have a conversation about it sometime.
Commissioner,
Over the many years I have worked for TSA, I have been challenged by the Melbourne Cup Day Public Holiday and TSA’s observance of this “day off”. And again today I am reminded of this.
My question to you is why does TSA not take a stand against gambling, which is essentially ALL that this day represents”, by remaining open for business?
I understand that there will be people wishing to take the day off to spend time with family, and that there would be a large cost to the Army when you consider the need to pay penalty rates etc… However if we as a movement believe so strongly in the harm that gambling can to do a person, family, community… (which I believe that we do) wouldn’t it be amazing to show this conviction by making the statement that, regardless of the financial cost, we will remain open to voice our concern over this issue.
I would be interested in your thoughts on this.
Thank you.
Sharyn
Hi Sharyn, Victoria is the only State that has the Melbourne Cup holiday and regrettably, it is a statutory holiday and we are unable to require staff to work. If we chose to ask staff to work, you can imagine the criticism we would get from the public if it were know that we paid staff double time simply to make a statement about the horse racing public holiday.
The Salvation Army is part of a strong lobby opposed to gambling and in fact Major Brad Hales has recently been invited to be part of a federal government task force on the subject.
Hi Sharyn (and Commissioner) – Personally I don’t have a problem with it, because the event does not impact me. In fact, I almost completely forgot the horse race was on, my day did not have anything to do with it.
I think if we started ‘taking a stand’ against things like this, when we should also not take the Christian holidays as public holidays when lots of people in the public and also who are employed by us, are not Christian.
If you were of a different faith, would you work on Good Friday? or Christmas? I don’t think so, in fact most people accept it as an opportunity to rest and spend with loved ones, which for people in Melbourne, the Cup day also can be. I don’t think we should get too high and mighly about issues like this. Embrace the day off, invite friends over and spend some quality time with them, build relationships, and enjoy life.
Just my thoughts
I was in a difficult situation this year. Now a soldier, it was tricky for me to figure out whether the office sweepstakes was considered gambling or not. I ended up deciding not to partake in the sweepstakes, but still attended the lunch – as it was a social activity, and I love sport of any kind, and The Melbourne Cup is primarily a sport, not just an occasion to gamble. Plus, choosing not to partake in the sweepstakes opened up opportunities to discuss my faith with my workmates. Taking a stand while participating often speaks stronger than taking a stand by not participating.
We’ve just been away on 4 weeks holiday and as is my habit, while away, I read stuff that I wouldn’t normally read. Just prior to going, I decided I would read some of Paul’s writings as a block. To add to this and to my surprise while hunting through old books in a book shop in NSW, I found a book called “Reading Paul” by Michael Gorman.
I don’t know if you’ve ever read him but some of the stuff I read intrigued me. For example, in chapter 9 he used an example from a book called “The Cost of Discipleship” (page111) by Dietrich Bonhoffer, where he talked about “Cheap Grace” and “Costly Grace”. It set me thinking about how sometimes people will accept others and what they do at any cost. Abuse in the home, abuse on the street, bad driving habits on the roads, bad habits in our churches, bad language around our churches, and sexual suggesttions within the precincts of our churches – the list is endless.
If cheap grace is a practice to excuse such behaviour, when is enough, enough. And how would you feel if such actions bought TSA into some question. And when should the excused not be excused anymore, but asked to account for one’s behaviour ? And what if it’s one who is seen as a church leader ? Notwithstanding the likelihood of witch-hunts and predatory judgements – “let them that have not sinned cast the first stone etc etc, I’d be really interested to hear your comments as well as those of your readers.
Darryl, this is a really interesting subject and one which is more easily discussed in a group that written about but, let me give it a go.
Putting aside cheap grace – costly grace, in respect to the example you gave, I think there is a difference between accepting people and accepting people’s behaviour. Were it not for God’s capacity to see beyond our behaviour, few of us would ever have been saved.
Inappropriate behaviour is after all said and done, inappropriate behaviour. Every day people are paying the price for bad behaviour and others pay the prices who are victims of bad behaviour.
Love can take a person only so far, but if the perpetrator of bad behaviour will not accept responsibility for themselves, then it is time to draw a line in the sand.
Cheap grace – costly grace – anyone who plays on the grace of God as a means of excusing their inappropriate and often, sinful behaviour plays a game of Russian roulette with God.
So Commissioner, (I thought it best to be formal for a minute or two) how long do we accept that bad behaviour? And how long do we try to LOVE them into the Kingdom – even though there is considerable damage done to the reputation of TSA and the church. I have been quite vocal of recent days with one particular situation because I know, from talking to people in my capacity as a Pasotal Carer, that the actions of one party is damaging MY CHURCH. (I call TSA my church because I chose to enlist, I wasnt born into its rank.)
I would not want to embark on a description of stuff that has happened here in this public forum, but if we could communicate privately by email I’d be happy to discuss it with you privately. And please, I want to say again that this is not “stirring the possum”. I am genuinely concerned for the people who are being affected by the situation about which I know.
My email address for your information is: rowley@rabbit.com.au if we could communicate privately.
Darryl, send me an email, I’m fascinated.
Ray, I dont have access to your email address.
Can you p;ease get me in touch with Rodney and Jenny Barnard .
Captain (then) oficiated at the wedding of my daughter Carroll Parker to James Selwood in Perth 17 years ago.
My daughter has an idea of helping the children in Japan and I thought I would try and make contact with the only Army officer I really kn ew.
Regards
Susan Parker
Hello Susan, Lt-Colonel Rodney Barnard now works at our Territorial Headquarters in Blackburn Melbourne. Rodney is the Secretary for Business Administration. The telephone number at THQ is, 03 8878 4500. I’m sure he would love to hear from you. Regards.
Thank you
I will ring tomorrow.
Best Regards
Susan
Pleased to be able to help. kindest regards.
Hi Commissioner, James Condon is a very dear friend, he recommended I start reading your blog. I have been greatly blessed as I have read them, as well as your responses to the questions you receive.
I was a Servant of Christ 1962-3, but had some health issues during out training and eventually became involved in the Charismatic movement and have been in ministry for over 46 years. I was saved at the Bentleigh corps as a 10 year old, it was a life changing experience.(I entered College from Wangaratta corps) I thank God for the strong Holiness teaching I received in my Army days, there seems so little emphasis on character nad lifestyle in my quarters today. We now live in a Retirement Village in Moe (but not retired spending considerable time in S E Asia) and seek to get to the Army as often as we can. I don’t have a question just thank God for the Army
Hi John, the delay in my response is due to our having been away on leave and returned to the office only today.
My thanks for your comment, I too am thankful for the emphasis on holiness teaching throughout the Army. I am constantly blessed by God’s revelation to me of his amazing grace that saves and sustains me. Bless you always.
Time to give blokes a go?
Disappointing news that the Victorian Men’s Bible Convention, which was re-commenced last year after lapsing for several years, will not proceed again this year due to planning committee instability. Serious attention to men’s ministry is long overdue! TSA has had Directors of Women’s Ministries at divisional and territorial level all over the world for many years now. What about the men? I believe Australian Eastern Territory has recently put something in place. Maybe it’s time for Australia Southern to do likewise.
I understand that there is a conference next week to address this whole under-emphasised, under-resourced and challenging area of ministry. I only hope that there is a significant presence of non-officer men leaders from different corps who can contribute significantly to the creative and strong response to God’s leading in this vital call to make disciples – male as well as female!
David thank you making us aware that the Victorian Men’s Bible Convention will not be proceeding this year. That news is very disappointing. Women’s Ministries are contributing may hours, finances and other resources to meeting the needs of women and families, and you are right TSA southern Terr. Does not appear to place as much importance in embracing the needs of men, that is unless you are in need to recover from substance abuse or decide to play in a brass band. This will have to change.
I am convinced that if you are able to teach, encourage, and educate blokes who they are in God’s sight, and assist them in ways that are particularly blokeish, then Godly men will rise up and lead their wives, treating women with respect through a servant attitude, leading the whole family by their example to understand who God is and the relationship that they can have in Him. That would be heavely.
I know this is possible. We just need the leadership.
Totally agree Brett. A group of blokes from Mornington Salvos was discussing this difficulty/challenge of reaching non-churchy Aussie blokes just this morning at 7am breakfast.
Ray, my best guess is that you would share the concern that Brett and I have raised here! Is the conference at Geelong intended as part of an initiative to have some ground-breaking investment in strategy, training, resources, etc.for authentic and effective ministry to men as we move forward??
Hi All and a deepfelt and superglad hello to you Ray
Please excuse me for not following the yarn
Some years ago you gave to me as we sat together sharing our thoughts and feelings a small medal which had the inscription IADOM
Ray our paths may have separated over the past years, however I have never forgotten your love and guidence.
Today I am still on the journey of life and I would have to say that you have had a huge roll in my growth.
I am not living up to the expectations of those around me or pretenting that i’m the perfect example of a program which I undertook.
I am me and my relationship with God is true and steadfast. I am glad to be alive and live life with more selfworth selftrust, selfrespect and selfawareness.
Though the trials of health I have had to date overcome and the silliest of mistakes I have made as I let go of the faith which saved me and turned my whole life around.
I still grab my guitar every now and then and play the songs that I taught myself from the music books as I hid in the chapel and sort after the peace and healing that I so needed. Just as the yarn about Humpy Dumpy I so enjoyed hearing you tell.
I was put back together and there has been times I forgot that.
I wanted to walk on my own 2 feet and control my will, I lost the vision of restoration I had and believe that evryone would always point out the cracks and the glue. I forgot that I was recrafted perfectly and beautifully and I placed the judgements and opinions of others, over the miracle which I was to my loving creator.
I love who I am today and I had to learn to stand alone with the Love that created me.
Today I may no longer wear my uniform, nevertheless because of the inspiration and always reliable trustworthy guidence leadership and friendship that you showed me I will always be in the battle with you.
I know you deserve the position you have been elected to and I am so glad,
I will always think of you and your family and miss you heaps
You were right “IT ALL DEPENDS ON ME”
God be with you in your hearts and minds as you honour his commandents and Seek his and only his face so that he can reach out and touch the needs of those around you though your obedience
Chris Bail
Hi Chris, how fantastic to hear, I remember our many conversations and I want to thank you for your thoughtfulk and kind words. I would love to keep in touch so if you can give me your email address that would be fantastic. Regards always.
I was very saddened to hear that the men’s Bible Conference is being cancelled due to ‘planning committee instability’ (what does that mean?). The lack of ministry to men has been a burden of prayer on my heart for a long long time. We need men who are godly role models to boys as they grow and enter youth and manhood. What I would like to know is: Where are all the godly men who will teach men how to be godly husbands and fathers? Where are all the godly men who are not afraid to hold men accountable for the way they live their lives? We have an abundance of ministries to women, youth and children, but where are the ministries to men?
I know there are some beautiful godly and holy men, but please think about the men in your circle of opportunity – opportunity to reach out and be an example as a true man of God. We need men who will stand up and be men after God’s own heart.
I really believe (and this is only my personal opinion), that godly men have failed and are failing men, and sadly, the fact that the men’s Bible Conference is being cancelled, seems to give support to my way of thinking.
Remember – ‘the need is the call’ – and countless men are in need.
I would say, please seek God and answer the call.
Amen! ?
Hi Shirley,
I don’t know about the other Divisions, but Western Victoria Division is certainly having a Men’s Retreat this year, whilst it is not on a statewide level it certainly will be reaching the men of this division. How do I know this….I am the guest speaker/leader. We are going to look at “Trekking through Life”, drawing parrallels with my trek on the Kokoda Trail and life in general.
If you know of any men out this way, let them know.
Just wondering Ray??
The Comment Button directly underneath your blog postings disappeared around about Easter time. Not sure if you were aware of this?
Hi David, Thanks for the note, I was unaware of the problem you raised, so I’ll get Simon to check it out. Thanks again.
Hi David, if you are referring to the posts on the main page, then yes, we are aware of this, but you can still comment (and read comments) by clicking on a posts title. I apologise for the inconvenience, but we had to resolve a different issue and so far this is the only way we know to do it. If you have any further problems, or wish to discuss in more details, feel free to email me at sye.robertson@aus.salvationarmy.org
Thanks Ray and Sye. Yes, I was able to find alternative ways to add a comment to a post, but I suspect that others either couldn’t be bothered or weren’t able to go the longer route. The Quick Comment hyperlink directly under the actual blog post is the best user friendly option. I’ve noticed significant decrease in comment respondents over last few months. I know you were on hols Ray, and am not suggesting that the blog topics have been of less interest when you have managed to squeeze one out. May I suggest resolving the Qick Comment Link facility . . . or a special blog that explains alternative access/entry points to make a comment. Blessings for your day!
Hi may name is Kenn i was a bandsman for many years at the Melbourne City Temple i have also played timbrels for 4 Generals I do not attend the army now but have stayed in touch with many salvationists i remember you in college. I have a problem that the vision of William Booth has been lost a lot ,ie not openairs many people in my community miss this the street witness seems to have gone no band march and timbrel displays
Hi Kenn, thanks for joining the discussion. As a former bandsman, I know you would have been thrilled to see the Melbourne Staff band march down Bourke St last Sunday for the Official opening of the refurbished building. People came out of shops and bars to warch and listen, it reminded me of days gone by. Regards.
Thanks for your reply i went into the city to witness the band march made me feel proud that i was a part of that in the past we did that twice every sunday after open airs marching proudly up bourke street. Last week i had the pleasure of fellowship in Brisbanewith my best friends Major & Mrs David Mc Murray at Stafford corp it was a great experience . Once again thank you for your reply as i have never had a CO ever contact me since i left the City Temple always mad4e me feel the vision was lost remember the 1LOST lamb.Take care
KENN
Kenn, thanks again for your comment and I am really pleased to know you have a friendship with Majors David and bev, they are fine people, please pass on my warm regards to them. Take care of yourself, you are loved by God.
Dear TC
The positional statement on human sexuality in part reads ‘Homosexual practice however, is, in the light of Scripture, clearly unacceptable’ and ‘Homosexual practice would render any person ineligible for full membership (soldiership) in the Army’
Q. Is there any scope for this statement to be modified by the Salvation Army to allow homosexuals to be fully accepted in the Army without any condemnation for their behaviour, and for homosexuals to be permitted to be Soldiers and Officers ?
Q. What are your thoughts on the facebook group ‘Salvos for a more inclusive church’ ? ( it’s primary purpose is education, information and discussion for those who are genuinely struggling to come to terms with the place of gay and lesbian people in the church, and particularly in The Salvation Army. ) In particular, do the goals of this group conflict with the PS on human sexuality ?
Hi John, thank you for your contribution. Orders and Regulations for Soldiers of the Salvation Army makes provision for non practicing homosexuals to become senior soldiers. This is identical to the positon we take in regard to hetrosexuals, there is no disction at that point. It is expected that Christian single people live a celebate life.
In regard to the website you mention, I have no direct access and so, whilst I have reported to me comments made by some, I do not have first handle konwledge of what is being said.
Regards always.
Hi Ray, I have a question, do you believe once your called its for life or is it just for a specific purpose or time?
Hi Vicki, you know, whilst we see Officership as a life long vocation, I am not sure any of us can presume to know the mind or will of God. I feel sure William Booth at one time in his life saw himself as a Methodist minister for all time, and we know how that turned out.
thanks Ray for taking the time to respond.
Hi Vicki, thought I would throw my thoughts into this one. I fully believe that I am called to serve God in whatever way he chooses to use me. Once an Officer but now not due to marrying a wonderful man who is not called to Officership, I still consider myself ordained for the service of God, even though I wear blue and not red clerical robes. On a daily basis God shows me how my ordination looks and he never ceases to amaze me with the strange things he asks me to do. Do I miss the role of Officership? – on occasion – but the important thing is finding myself doing the will of God. I know of Officers who wear the uniform but would not in all honesty consider themselves to be doing the will of God.
Thanks for your reply. I did not know you replies as no reply to my email but reply here. What do you think of this comment that it takes two to get married but only one to get divorced. My wife asked me for a divorce which I refused so she got one herself. I did not have to go to court as after 12 months separation divorce is autimatically granted and we had been separated for 6 yeasrs. I had no choice but to let her go as 1 Corinthians said you are to let your wife go if she is an unbeliever and it also says to get in someone else and then a member of the church and the third tiime a minister and if that fails then cast her out as an heathen. It also says that God hates divorce in Malachi and in Matthew jesus said we can only remarry if your wife has committed fornication so it looks like a I have to lead a life as a celebate monk hehehe. I did go to court and said my peace and told the judge I was not in favour as he said I was not in favour and he actually apoligized but said he had no choice but to grant the divorce as in the past the wife had to show I was drunk. bashing her or fornicating. Hope you can find some song books and keep up the good work. God Bless Peter
Hi Ray
This is not a question but I would just like to say it was a pleasure meeting you today, thanks fro the lunch and the interesting story.
next time lunch is one me
take care and thanks again
colin
Hi Colin, I sent you a message at your personal email adress, I hope you received it. We had a great time with you and the other staff,
Hello Raymond. I was watching yiou again on theopeninbg of 69 Bourke Street and saw how the Army had ambulances and street etams in the past and helps people. It looks like you have forgotten about my request as it has been so long and I have heard nothing. I did speak to the minister’s wife about the minister not replying and she said it would be better not to be so persistant as he would reply in his good time and not to be like a nagging wife or a dripping tap-the verse in proverbs hehehe. Guess I will have to buy the books myself and maybe photo copy them so not have to buy so many. God bless Peter
Hi Peter, in response to the issue concerning songbooks, I regret I had no success which is a little disappointing, but I appreciate you interest and concern. I hope as always, that you are doing well and moving forward with your life.
Hey Ray!
I think you should change your blog name to TCMonthly or something like that! Remember the old Women’s Day magazine that came out only once a week, then monthly. And the current Women’s Weekly that is also just a monthly journal!
Or maybe you could do a direct swap of Blog domain name with JK. He calls his TCTalk, but TCToday would work well for him. Different folks, different strokes, different realities.
Just ribbin’ ya!
May God give you many more blessings (and FF pts!)
Grace!
Thank you both for coming to preston yesterday. It was good to see you again , and thank
you for your continued prayeful support of paula in her ongoing battle with cancer.
Hi Ray, JUst a quick question. Is there currently a SA position statement with respect to activity in the Masonic Lodge and becoming a Soldier of the Army?
Hi, please don’t take my reply as any sort of official Salvation Army stance, as I’m not in the army currently ( but hope to be later ). I did a little research and found many internet sites that state along the lines of “membership in the Masonic Lodge (a) breaks the First Commandment because the God believed in and worshiped by the Masons is not the true God, and (b) denies the Gospel of justification by grace through faith in Jesus Christ by teaching that entrance into heaven does not depend on Jesus, but instead depends on being a Mason. Some Masons either strongly reject the allegation that they are a religion, or teach that their religion is no different than Christianity.”
I don’t see how soldiers in the army can be free masons, however I have come across other people in the army who like to believe that some officers are freemasons, and I do not know if its true, or if they are just starting rumours or gossip.
So if would be good to hear from the TC in regards to your question Darryl.
It all sounds like a contradiction of terms John. Sounds like they want to have “a couple of bob eah way” on the question of religion. With respect to Soldiership, if you are right about the Jesus aspect (And I have no reason to dispute what you’ve said) then it certainly contradicts all that a soldier would agree to when signing the Articles of War.
Thanks for your comments. I look forward to hearing Ray’s comments too.
sure does sound like it Darryl. The approach does have some good results, in that people from all religions can get together and be in peace and fellowship with each other. A christian who is a freemason could then try to encourage them to be a christian !
I just googled the subject and Wikipedia has an interesting discription of it all. (The supreme being stuff is interesting – sounds like what ever you want it to fit, it will.) No mention of a Christ and even less on The Holy Spirit, all of which is central to everything we Salvos believe.
I’ve scoured the minutes, O&R and other sources to no avail. I’m sure the TC can find something current, but in the meantime I can shed some light on our founders thoughts:
In 1925 General Booth composed a message to all active officers, stating: “…No language of mine could be too strong in condemning and officer’s affiliation with any society which shuts Him (Christ) outside its temples; and which in its religious ceremonies gives neither Him nor His Name any place.. the place where Jesus Christ is not allowed is no place for any Salvation officer…”
It’s worth noting that this specifically mentions officers, not soldiers. I think the overall tone and opinion though is quite clear.
I have been interested to follow the discussion to do with, what is more widely described as “secret societies” and I need to advise there is no direct or indirect reference in Orders and Regulations for Soldiers or Officers.
When a Salvationist makes application to be considered for Officership, one of the questions asked is, “Do you belong to a secret society?” Disclosure of membership to any such organisation is expected.
Hi Ray, what about this one,……..
an extract From O & R for soldiers chapter 9 sect 4 under “In the Community”
4. Many good causes and many essential modes of community service are likely to awaken the sympathy of the salvation soldier. He should remember, however, that his voluntary work for the benefit of the community should be undertaken mainly through the medium of The Salvation Army, which holds a unique position of confidence and rarely has as much manpower as its opportunities demand. The soldier should resist the temptation to be associated with other undertakings for the sake of personal prestige. He should remember that above all other duties, that of being a personal evangelist will determine how he employs his time and his strength.
It is especially important for a soldier to avoid attachments which limit his freedom to witness for Christ. He should respond with the utmost caution to any suggestion that he should join any group or organization in which discussion of religion is prohibited. Most salvationists would decline any such invitation, knowing that freedom to speak about their faith in any company and at any time is one of the most precious freedoms of all. Closely connected with this consideration is the need for a Salvationist’s life to match his spoken witness. It is thus essential for his life to be transparent, beyond reproach or suspicion. The maintaining of such a lifestyle is rendered exceedingly difficult where a Salvationist allows himself involvement with secret societies or with any organization whose membership lists or activities are closely guarded from public scrutiny.
Hi Darryl, thanks for your research, it’s a good word. Orders and Regulations still provides a guide post. You will be interested to know that only yesterday at Covenant Day, we launched the release of a hard copy version of Orders and Regulations for Officers Volume One which is the principles of Officership.
The book, whilst retaining the text unchanged, is in easy to read formatt without the technical referencing. It is badged under the title of the first chapter, “the Character and Spirit of the Officer.”
I want all officers to be reminded of, what Officership looks like, how it is to be lived and what it means to serve.
Thanks for your response but in truth Ray, it was not my research but an email to our officers that I copied to you for your info. No credit please. But it is important that the Army has a position and is prepared to voice that position with respect to Officers and Soldiers involvement.
I still cant understand how a situation like this raises such concern (?????) and yet bad behaviour in our corps is accepted. Doesnt add up.
And I know you keep hearing me go on about this and I will keep on banging on about it. Its not going to go away.
Hi Ray, Hi frequent second hand book shops often, but recently after looking for 2 years, I finally found and bought Rick Warren’s “The purpose driven Church”. WOW what a book. It really has blown me away.
Firstly have you read it and if so what did you think of it? Secondly, and I’ve read so much good stuff in the book, I read this. What do you think? “Explosive growth occurs when the type of people in the community match the type of people that are already in the church, and they both match the type of person the pastor is.” (Knowing who you can best reach page 177 of the above book)
Id be interested to hear any reaction from others who have read the book.
Hi Darryl, I also have a copy of Rick Warren’s book and have read it twice. It shaped the model for the development of the 9.30am congregation that commenced when Aylene and I were the Corps Officers at Box Hill.
The life development model articulated in his book is what I continue to promote as an adaptable, and the most relevant approach to congregational life in a community.
I spent a morning with Rick Warren at his Saddleback Church in LA many years ago when I visited the USA. He is an amazing man.
Wow, talking to the man must have been an absolute privilege. The description of the start of Saddleback, (before the first meeting) with all the pre-meeting survey work just shows how much its necessary to know the target group.
Anyway thanks for the response. I have been using the book as my devotions for the last week or so and I have spent heaps of time pondering. It’d be good to put some of this stuff into practice but alas………….
Hi Darryl,
The Purpose Driven Church is a wonderful book and one that had a profound impact on my approach to ministry both as an officer and since moving onto other areas of ministry. I was privelaged to meet Ric Warren in 2000 and then in 2001 and my autographed copy of Purpose Driven Church has pride of place on my book shelf. Encourage your corps leadership to read it as it will impact them.
From what I can acertain not too many are readers at all Mark, mores the pity. But I have thought to buy a few copies and put them in our Corps Library which I started a few months ago. (There are a couple of copies of Purpose driven Life in there now)
You see I actually believe that there is a great deal of benefit in reading. Ebay has a copy or two for $5.00 which is great value. (Now dont anyone go and bid against me please. )
I’m about half way through the book and I just wish it was around when we were officers in Tassie. (Thankfully the Lord was directing us, and much of the stuff in the book was what we did cause we didnt have reference points)
It gives all the concepts, and all the reasons for them to grow a Corps – not with all the Biblical stuff, but with all the mechanics of how to. A Wonderful book, but I think I’ve said that already.
Aylene and Raymond , Good news – Paula has been told by her doctor (today) that her health
has improved and does not believe she will need radiation treatment. But may still need more
chemotherapy , please continue to pray for – Thanks.
Dear Commissioner,
I’ve just read your article about the officer with 3000 books, where you suggested that we should leave the books aside for a while and be inspired by the Holy Spirit instead, as example you mentioned the Apostles who had to do without books.
I do have some doubts about your point of view. First of all, the one does not exclude the other. I always try to read into the subject as much as possible, but I also let myself be inspired by the Holy Spirit. Secondly, you mention the Apostles as examples, but that is not fair. The Apostles were trained by Jesus Himself, a great advantage I think. But more important, they were living in the time of Jesus and were aware of the culture of the New Testament. Furthermore, they were Jews, and therefore had a very good understanding of the history and the cultural history of Israel. In order for us to understand the Bible, we need this cultural and historical understanding, and so far the Holy Spirit has not been giving me advice on this. Therefor it is a sacred duty of every preacher and teacher to prepare him/herself properly, which includes studying the commentaries.
How do you see the need for historical and cultural knowledge for interpreting the Bible?
Kind regards,
André van der Leij (Captain)
Daugavpils, Latvia
Dear Captain,
How good to hear from you and my thanks for joining the discussion. The points you raise are well taken and you show a thoughtful approach to the subject. While I absolutely agree with all that you say, within the materialistic culture of Australia where we have become so dependant upon things and others to give us happiness, to my way of thinking, it helps every now and again to step back from those things and spend time with God only.
It can be almost like a personal retreat, in which often times, we focus exclusively upon God and the voice of God within. It is at times like that, when we shut out the voices of others, that we can sometimes hear the voice of God more clearly.
It does my spirit good to practice that discipline from time to time.
Kindest regards, God bless you.